np: SS UU Stage 5: Change is Gonna Come (Diggersby & Venusaur BANNED)

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Im not trying to justify bringing alolan ninetales back(The council already decided on it so there is no point arguing unbanning it).Im simply stating the fact alolan ninetales would be a good check to venasaur if it was theoretically unbanned.(Which might be important to note for the future with DLC 2 coming,by then maybe alolan ninetales will be unbanned maybe not)
Stop thinking like this: "If we unban an UUBL mon other will be balance".

About Sun, Tytar isnt the top tier mon bc he his outclassed in most rol rn.
Is gonna be Sun uncontested like before DLC?
About Venusaur, he gain Earth Power in this gen, but Weather Ball is 100% in sun teams.
Specs Venusaur can have a niche rn outside of sun?
 
I for one think Diggersby is going to be crazy. So many viable sets ranging from sd sash, agility sets, scarf (being the most dangerous imo), and even some banded sets to absolutely run over common walls such as blissey, and skarmory with thunder punch. Even some av sets may see some play. An av set with for say, eq/t-punch/quick-attack/knock-off can be viable in some situations. I just think Diggersby as a whole is way too versatile and way too much for the tier to handle. Just my input though.
 
Alolan Ninetales checks a decent amount of UUBL - I'd be very interested to see it back in play when the new DLC drops and UU gets shaken up a bit. It totally changes the meta though - people might start running Arcanine a lot more to check it (which gets Psychic Fangs to break screens).

The meta as it is right now PROBABLY can't handle Alolan Ninetales though. Although it certainly isn't the worst thing in UUBL.
 
Quick Suggestion if Sun becomes dominant; What if we just unban drizzle Politoed. Toed would be far easier to handle then Pelliper, and rain would be a good way of checking sun and even sand (it would be Gen V OU again).

If rain with swift swim users (namely Ludicolo and Barraskewda, but also Qwilfish and Poliwrath) then we could institute a drizzle plus Swift swim complex ban as I don't feel Rain would be broken without this. I should stress that I only started playing UU since DLC, and I haven't been playing a lot anyways (mainly just looking at Meta developments and forums) but I just feel it is something important to bring up.
 

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Quick Suggestion if Sun becomes dominant; What if we just unban drizzle Politoed. Toed would be far easier to handle then Pelliper, and rain would be a good way of checking sun and even sand (it would be Gen V OU again).

If rain with swift swim users (namely Ludicolo and Barraskewda, but also Qwilfish and Poliwrath) then we could institute a drizzle plus Swift swim complex ban as I don't feel Rain would be broken without this. I should stress that I only started playing UU since DLC, and I haven't been playing a lot anyways (mainly just looking at Meta developments and forums) but I just feel it is something important to bring up.
>summoning disgustingly broken playstyle to check the playstyle that recently had a disgustingly broken pokemon unbanned
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Alolan Ninetales checks a decent amount of UUBL - I'd be very interested to see it back in play when the new DLC drops and UU gets shaken up a bit. It totally changes the meta though - people might start running Arcanine a lot more to check it (which gets Psychic Fangs to break screens).

The meta as it is right now PROBABLY can't handle Alolan Ninetales though. Although it certainly isn't the worst thing in UUBL.
The thing is that alolan-ninetales as a pokemon itself isn't broken, rather it enables many strong setup sweepers in the tier like cloyster, crawdaunt, lycanroc-dusk, terrakion, keldeo, mimikyu, scyther, sharpedo, etc to build up boosts like crazy with it's ability to set aurora veil and beat defoggers allowing these mons to snowball the entire tier and 6-0 teams. Many of these pokemon are manageable without alolan-ninetales' ability to set up screens, thus that's why it should stay banned. It's too good at it's job and makes the set up sweepers the problem when in reality without it, these sweepers would be fine.
 
Somewhere up above, Pabloaram made the point that using the logic of “broken checks broken” is an inherently flawed line of thought in this metagame, and I’m inclined to agree. UU as a whole has been in a fairly unprecedented position throughout the entirety of SS due primarily to dexit and then the subsequent shakeups of Home and Isle of Armor, as well as Crown Tundra in the future. With this in mind, I think the council has done a pretty good job of maintaining as much stability in the tier as they can. Post-DLC UU is incredibly offensively oriented, with such archetypes as bulky offense and hyper offense being very common throughout the ladder. Stall and balance are still prevalent of course, especially with the dominance of Skarm/Bliss as a defensive core and the ubiquity of teleport Slowking. That said, even these strong defensive mons are not infallible, and there’s a reason that certain mons were sent to the shadow realm.

It’s understandable that lots of people might be interested in retests now that the dust has settled a bit and things have started to stabilize—at least to some extent—in the wake of the many drops we got. However, we saw firsthand recently that Durant especially is still too strong and unhealthy for the tier. Things like Alolatales aren’t unhealthy because of their offensive presence, but because of the type of metagame that they encourage. In a wallbreaker-infested tier, Aurora Veil is ridiculously good, to the point where it is absolutely centralizing if there is a mon that can abuse it with the efficacy that Alolatales can. I’ve seen the argument that with the reintroduction of Venusaur to the tier, Alolatales will balance out the inevitable return of sun as an archetype. I understand this line of thought, and it does make sense in a vacuum. But in the broader sense of the tier’s balance as a whole, this simply wouldn’t work due to the archetypes that Alolatales’ presence encourages. We’ve seen how crazy hyper offense teams can be with Grimmsnarl’s premier dual screens support. Now imagine that but in one turn, with added chip from hail, plus sleep with hypnosis support? It’s no wonder that Alolatales was banned in the first place, and why it still is now.

As for other mons people have pushed to be retested, I’ll touch on them a little bit too. Dracozolt could be more manageable in theory now, with the prevalence of faster mons in the tier as well and the power creep that has shown up post-DLC. That said, what scarf Zolt sacrifices in power, it gains in speed. That in combination with tailwind support from teammates such as Talonflame, allows Band/Scarf Zolt to shred defensive staples such as Slowking and Skarm. Zolt would only really be stopped by Steelix, but even then, it could run High Horsepower for a clean guaranteed 2HKO. I can see why the council chose to keep Zolt banned.

Haxorus is Haxorus. It’s now gotten a new tool in scale shot, which boosts its already insane walkbreaking capabilities even further with the speed increase. Most of what I would say about Haxorus has already been said, and probably better than I could articulate, so I’ll keep it to this.

Primarina I could honestly see finding a somewhat healthier spot in the meta than its UUBL companions. Given that its physical defenses are lacking, it certainly doesn't appreciate the level of physical strength in the tier. That said, its stellar offensive typing in conjunction with specs or calm mind allows it to shred unprepared teams. Its typing also lends itself to some useful resistances as well. I could really go either way with Primarina. As much as I love the mon, I can see why it’s not been retested quite yet.

To finish up, I just want to reiterate that a mon doesn’t have to be offensively ridiculous to be broken. Alolatales is broken because of the type of metagame and archetypes it encourages. Other powerhouses like Dracozolt and Haxorus are more unmanageable because in the former case, it lacks defensive counterplay with proper support, and in the latter case, is incredibly hard to stop once it gets going. I think a lot of people think about UUBL retests both in a vacuum and in the mindset of “broken checks broken”, which, as I’ve hopefully illustrated with the points on Alolatales, is a very dangerous line of thought in the kind of metagame we’re in.
 
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The thing is that alolan-ninetales as a pokemon itself isn't broken, rather it enables many strong setup sweepers in the tier like cloyster, crawdaunt, lycanroc-dusk, terrakion, keldeo, mimikyu, scyther, sharpedo, etc to build up boosts like crazy with it's ability to set aurora veil and beat defoggers allowing these mons to snowball the entire tier and 6-0 teams. Many of these pokemon are manageable without alolan-ninetales' ability to set up screens, thus that's why it should stay banned. It's too good at it's job and makes the set up sweepers the problem when in reality without it, these sweepers would be fine.
I completely agree with you - things like Cloyster/Terrakion are the reason I don't think the meta can handle Alolan-Ninetales right now. Ironically one of the best counter for it is regular Ninetales probably, but Ninetales isn't prevalent enough in the meta overall yet to make a difference (and won't be a tall if Drought gets blocked).

But, my point was, when the meta gets totally shifted again with new mons from new DLC, it should get thrown in at the start to see if it can find a better spot in the meta, along with a lot of other things. Things like Arcanine or regular Ninetales could see more usage by then to help check it, or other things we don't even realize right now that end up there. Should only really take a week of play to re-assess what is truly broken in a new meta with may new things to play with.
 
I would like to discuss the following mon, in light of the recent Venusaur unban:

Coalossal @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Flamethrower
- Rock Blast
- Earth Power​
This fellow has the ability to check Solar Power Charizard thanks to its typing + Flash Fire and kill it with Rock Blast, which also lets it switch in freely against most fire type mons. Surprisingly enough, it also checks Venusaur, as Giga Drain is a 4OHKO. Earth Power is there to catch Torkoal, which is a 2OHKO after rocks. Despite it being very slow, Coalossal is still able to outspeed Torkoal without Spe investment.
It also has access to Rapid Spin to get rid of hazards, however since this build is specifically for Sun teams, I instead decided to pair Coalossal with Rotom-W, as it has access to Defog and can check mons that otherwise would give Coalossal a hard time, such as Keldeo, Mantine and pretty much any other water. Rotom-W also can help check Charizard if it's carrying Focus Blast, as it can 2ohko Coalossal.
0 Atk Coalossal Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 336-408 (113.1 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Coalossal: 113-134 (26.6 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
 
I would like to discuss the following mon, in light of the recent Venusaur unban:

Coalossal @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Flamethrower
- Rock Blast
- Earth Power​
This fellow has the ability to check Solar Power Charizard thanks to its typing + Flash Fire and kill it with Rock Blast, which also lets it switch in freely against most fire type mons. Surprisingly enough, it also checks Venusaur, as Giga Drain is a 4OHKO. Earth Power is there to catch Torkoal, which is a 2OHKO after rocks. Despite it being very slow, Coalossal is still able to outspeed Torkoal without Spe investment.
It also has access to Rapid Spin to get rid of hazards, however since this build is specifically for Sun teams, I instead decided to pair Coalossal with Rotom-W, as it has access to Defog and can check mons that otherwise would give Coalossal a hard time, such as Keldeo, Mantine and pretty much any other water. Rotom-W also can help check Charizard if it's carrying Focus Blast, as it can 2ohko Coalossal.
0 Atk Coalossal Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 336-408 (113.1 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Coalossal: 113-134 (26.6 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Coalossal in Sun: 400-472 (94.3 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

0- Atk Life Orb Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Coalossal: 244-291 (57.5 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If Growth is up EQ OHKOs
 
You made me think of something else Zard can do;

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Coalossal in Sun: 472-556 (111.3 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

2HKO without Specs as well.

No need for shaky accuracy, gives a good coverage move for Flash Fire mons as well. Airslash then hits Centiskorch so something like Overheat or Fire Blast/Air Slash/ Scorching Sands/ Solar Beam has great coverage.
 
You made me think of something else Zard can do;

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Coalossal in Sun: 472-556 (111.3 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

2HKO without Specs as well.

No need for shaky accuracy, gives a good coverage move for Flash Fire mons as well. Airslash then hits Centiskorch so something like Overheat or Fire Blast/Air Slash/ Scorching Sands/ Solar Beam has great coverage.
Weather Ball 2hko Blissey under sun.
Blissey need 136+ spedf (ofc 252 hp) to transform the roll in a 3hko.

The only mon safe is chople berry Ttar but Focus Miss is a thing.

Charizard under sun is broken asf but the tier have pretty good offensive check in Terrakion and Lycanrock.

Bc of this a find Drought/Sun to be a unhealthly playstile to the tier.
 
Weather Ball 2hko Blissey under sun.
Blissey need 136+ spedf (ofc 252 hp) to transform the roll in a 3hko.

The only mon safe is chople berry Ttar but Focus Miss is a thing.

Charizard under sun is broken asf but the tier have pretty good offensive check in Terrakion and Lycanrock.

Bc of this a find Drought/Sun to be a unhealthly playstile to the tier.
Then ban Charizard not Sun imo.
 

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Banning Charizard would not make sun bearable; Venusaur is still far too powerful an abuser.
Banning Venusaur would similarly not do the job; it'd remove one of sun's best sweepers but experimentation has shown now that excellent alternatives like Choice Scarf Jirachi or Mienshao fit perfectly fine on the archetype, as well as Flame Charge Incineroar.
There are even more abusers like Heliolisk, Hatterene, Darmanitan etc. all of which cause massive issues and are pretty much unbearable for any standard team without resorting to creative measures like Coalossal (very cool idea retrowaves!)

The video I posted was mostly a meme but it still kinda sheds light on how sun has always had the potential to be problematic within the tier, we just hadn't tapped into that potential yet. I don't believe banning any single abuser will fix this issue. I also believe that RU is having issues with Drought now that Heliolisk has dropped, with many clamoring for the cheesy playstyle to be banned entirely.

tldr ban drought free venu and the other guys
also please stop acting like venusaur has room for earth power it literally cannot fit it D:
 
Without derailing the thread with "ban x instead" posts, I'd just like to suggest banning Torkoal. What makes Sun so good is Torkoal's inherent utility (Rocks, Spin, Lava Plume, Yawn) that frees up a lot of space to slap more sun abusers or other Pokemon onto the team. Banning Torkoal would leave Ninetales/Vulpix as the only Sun setters. Since neither fox has good inherent utility (I guess Hypnosis maybe), you're forced to drop a slot that would've gone to Darm/Specs Zard for a Pokemon that sets Rocks.

With that said, I playtested a variant of the OU Sample Team's Sun team, and I'm inclined to agree that Venusaur makes the playstyle really difficult to play against. Venusaur is both surprisingly bulky and the fastest Sun sweeper in the tier, so it won't be stopped by Ice Shards and general priority, more often than not. However, I think Venusaur's ability to clean up late game is moreso tied to the fact a lot of the Sun wallbreakers just break down most of Venusaur's checks altogether, which I think give the impression that Venusaur is busted. It does its role well, but not too well to the point where it's flat-out 5-0ing or 6-0ing teams on its own.

With that said, Diggersby is a Pokemon that I've seen 5-0 or 6-0 teams on its own. SD sets with Earthquake, Fire Punch, and Quick Attack breaks through a lot of the top defensive Pokemon in the tier while cleaning with a Quick Attack that OHKOs any offensive mon that doesn't resist Normal. Screens further exacerbates the problem since it guarantees a +2 against Body Press Skarmory and +4 against some other Pokemon. Pairing it with another strong wallbreaker like Crawdaunt under screens puts immense pressure on opposing teams. Even if you elect to not run Screens, the same kind of defensive strain can be accomplished by running Diggersby + Craw + Teleport Pokemon. The aforementioned point also warrants a discussion about Crawdaunt's healthiness in the tier, but I am confident that both of them active in UU simultaneously isn't healthy.
 
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Without derailing the thread with "ban x instead" posts, I'd just like to suggest banning Torkoal. What makes Sun so good is Torkoal's inherent utility (Rocks, Spin, Lava Plume, Yawn) that frees up a lot of space to slap more sun abusers or other Pokemon onto the team. Banning Torkoal would leave Ninetales/Vulpix as the only Sun setters. Since neither fox has good inherent utility (I guess Hypnosis maybe), you're forced to drop a slot that would've gone to Darm/Specs Zard for a Pokemon that sets Rocks.

With that said, I playtested a variant of the OU Sample Team's Sun team, and I'm inclined to agree that Venusaur makes the playstyle really difficult to play against. Venusaur is both surprisingly bulky and the fastest Sun sweeper in the tier, so it won't be stopped by Ice Shards and general priority, more often than not. However, I think Venusaur's ability to clean up late game is moreso tied to the fact a lot of the Sun wallbreakers just break down most of Venusaur's checks altogether, which I think give the impression that Venusaur is busted. It does its role well, but not too well to the point where it's flat-out 5-0ing or 6-0ing teams on its own.

With that said, Diggersby is a Pokemon that I've seen 5-0 or 6-0 teams on its own. SD sets with Earthquake, Fire Punch, and Quick Attack breaks through a lot of the top defensive Pokemon in the tier while cleaning with Quick Attack that OHKOs any offensive mon that doesn't resist Normal. Screens further exacerbates the problem since it guarantees a +2 against Body Press Skarmory and +4 against some other Pokemon. Pairing it with another strong wallbreaker like Crawdaunt under screens puts immense pressure on opposing teams. Even if you elect to not run Screens, the same kind of defensive strain can be accomplished by running Diggersby + Craw + Teleport Pokemon. The aforementioned point also warrants a discussion about Crawdaunt's healthiness in the tier, but I am confident that both of them active in UU simultaneously isn't healthy.
This is probably another shit take but I personally have to disagree.Even if torkoal is banned that doesn't change venasaur's great synergy on sun teams.When venasuar was banned it wasn't in argument sun was broken anymore even with torkoal still in UU.Charizard is a fantastic sun wallbreaker but it alone can't carry a whole archetype.You said if torkoal was banned it would force sun teams to drop a teamate but i don't think this would be the case as the sun sweepers(venasuar and charizard) have so much breaking power stealth rock damage is insignificant most of the time. Therefore I think the problem is still venasuar and not sun and so if it were to get rebanned sun would be a much healthier playstyle unlike drizzle.Also the argument you used for torkoal having much more utility than ninetales while true this argument could also be applied for politoed. Even if politoed was the only rain setter in UU i still think drizzle would be a broken playstyle with not one pokemon being able to be identified as the problem unlike the case with venasaur.For those who feel sun would still be a problem even without venasaur feel free to disagree(i liked thundergoos's post explaining why alolatales is still too good which i now agree with instead of being told to just think differently)
 
Without derailing the thread with "ban x instead" posts, I'd just like to suggest banning Torkoal. What makes Sun so good is Torkoal's inherent utility (Rocks, Spin, Lava Plume, Yawn) that frees up a lot of space to slap more sun abusers or other Pokemon onto the team. Banning Torkoal would leave Ninetales/Vulpix as the only Sun setters. Since neither fox has good inherent utility (I guess Hypnosis maybe), you're forced to drop a slot that would've gone to Darm/Specs Zard for a Pokemon that sets Rocks.
I'm not sure Torkoal should be banned, since the problem isn't really Torkoal. It's part of a combination of a lot of sun abusers. NONE of the sub abusers, including Venusaur and Charizard, would be a huge problem without Drought. I'm not advocating for a ban on Drought - I just don't think any individual pokemon abusing it should be banned since, individually, they are not a problem really.

That being said, Torkoal is a very very good sun setter. So, it would be interesting if more people were forced to use Ninetales instead, and I wonder if sun teams would still be as broken as they are now if that was the case. Even if Drought was banned, I think some teams can still make Sunny Day teams viable with a decent support Sunny Day user and Venusaur, Charizard, etc., and have it be both manageable, somewhat viable, and not broken.
 
I'm not sure Torkoal should be banned, since the problem isn't really Torkoal. It's part of a combination of a lot of sun abusers. NONE of the sub abusers, including Venusaur and Charizard, would be a huge problem without Drought. I'm not advocating for a ban on Drought - I just don't think any individual pokemon abusing it should be banned since, individually, they are not a problem really.

That being said, Torkoal is a very very good sun setter. So, it would be interesting if more people were forced to use Ninetales instead, and I wonder if sun teams would still be as broken as they are now if that was the case. Even if Drought was banned, I think some teams can still make Sunny Day teams viable with a decent support Sunny Day user and Venusaur, Charizard, etc., and have it be both manageable, somewhat viable, and not broken.
That’s an interesting point about Sunny Day variants of drought. However wouldn’t investing a turn to set up drain momentum enough to make this alternative unviable? Setting up sun while the other player sets rocks, SD, U-turn, Future sights, ect is more challenging then having a mon set it up for free. I am not so sure how many players would play a sun team with that kind of upkeep.

Another interesting question is at what point is it considered more reasonable to ban sun setters then a whole group of pokemon the benifit from the free set up of sun? Five? Ten? Personally I’m neutral to the idea of a drought ban. It’s just food for thought.
 
That’s an interesting point about Sunny Day variants of drought. However wouldn’t investing a turn to set up drain momentum enough to make this alternative unviable? Setting up sun while the other player sets rocks, SD, U-turn, Future sights, ect is more challenging then having a mon set it up for free. I am not so sure how many players would play a sun team with that kind of upkeep.

Another interesting question is at what point is it considered more reasonable to ban sun setters then a whole group of pokemon the benifit from the free set up of sun? Five? Ten? Personally I’m neutral to the idea of a drought ban. It’s just food for thought.
If you make a team that is, by and large, dependent on Sun, and Drought is banned, then wasting a turn and moveslot for Sunny Day on a support mon (like Klefki) is not a terrible thing. It may not be the absolute best team setup, but that's a good thing, since it means it doesn't centralize the meta and just offers alternatives for team building. 7+ turns of sun with Sunny Day is more than enough for something like Venusaur or Charizard to go nuts.

I personally am against most versions of banning individual pokemon unless they centralize the meta. So, I don't think banning any sun setters or sun beneficiaries would be a good thing. If the problem is that Drought gives a lot of free sun, then ban that instead of any individual pokemon. But I'm not sure that Drought or Sun centralizes UU with Venusaur added back. I don't have that strong an opinion on it either way.
 
I'm under the impression that the council intends to vote tomorrow due to shifts happening on Saturday so I shall share my thoughts on Venusaur/Drought and Diggersby now.


Venusaur is still far too efficient at cleaning through teams with Drought being legal. Most people have to resort to unconventional methods to even keep Sun teams in check by running multiple counters in Goodra, SpD Tyranitar, Gigalith, Mamoswine, Flash Fire Chandelure, and Coalossal to handle the combination of Specs Charizard + Venusaur + second breaker of choice. In doing so most teams become structurally too weak to handle the rest of the metagame. With shifts, we only got one additional response capable of switching into Venusaur being Dragalge. Talonflame can revenge kill if it is at full health but you are putting yourself in a position where you a forced to Brave Bird and break your Gale Wings anyway. Aside from this nothing has changed when it comes to us having not enough ways to switch into or revenge kill Venusaur efficiently.


Charizard has also now emerged as a threat under Sun. While Charizard was legal the last time Venusaur was free I don't think anyone caught onto how devastating Choice Specs sets are under Sun. The OU sample is probably the most likely reason why it has gained so much traction. Solar Power boosted Weather Ball's, Fire Blast's, and Overheat's tear through pretty much anything including foes that resist said coverage. People have already shown how powerful it is with it being strong enough to 2HKO foes like Slowking, Dragalge, etc. Not to mention we have plenty more Pokemon that become a lot more problematic to switch into like Darmanitan, Noivern, Heliolisk, and Hatterene because Drought enables them to break through their checks substantially easier.

I was previously against Drought as a potential ban the last time this was discussed but I am more inclined to believe this would be a better approach this time around. Venusaur isn't the sole issue with Sun teams anymore, which previously made the playstyle fall completely under the radar with its ban. I've been replacing Venusaur with Shiftry and while it is definitely less effective at cleaning than Venusaur it does the job well enough with partners like Darmanitan and Charizard plowing holes through teams. I've seen discussion on banning Torkoal but there is nothing that stops you from using Ninetales. While you lose the role compression this can be remedied by putting SR on Blissey or using Hatterene + Noivern for removal as an example. R: Manual sun, we should focus on this if it proves to be problematic after a potential Drought ban. Teams being forced to set sun manually have commonly been rather flawed, as shown with rain teams, and I believe this is a gamble we should be fine with taking. If it is an issue then we can simply look at Heat Rock, which is something PU has done this gen. Though I don't see this likely being an issue.


As for Diggersby, UU doesn't benefit from having it in the tier. I don't think the logic that the metagame is faster matters as much when this generation has seen a substantial buff to pivoting and bringing in your partners easier/safely. Diggersby still has a respectable Speed tier that lets it outpace a good chunk of the metagame to fire off Huge Power boosted Body Slams/Mega Kicks or Earthquakes. While it is true we have more Ground immunities, which brings us up to about 5-6 good ones, only one of which actually resists its Normal STAB, this being Skarmory. However, Diggersby has no issue breaking through this with SD sets when it has access to coverage like Fire Punch, which notably allows it to also pressure Pokemon forced to use Shuca Berry's like Cobalion. Bronzong resists its STABs but it is also far more prone to the rest of its coverage. Said coverage being Knock Off and U-turn, which gives it the ability to run multiple sets efficiently like SD, Scarf, Band, Agility. This flexibility paired with the ability to bring it in so easily gives it more than enough opportunities to tear apart teams. Not to mention it having STAB priority to prevent certain foes like Crawdaunt or Keldeo reliably revenge killing it. This makes you far more reliant on using a faster Steel, Chandelure, or Lycanroc Dusk to comfortably take the hit. This is further worsened if you support it behind dual screens too. So, realistically we have one 'safe' switchin to the bunny with the rest being reliant on you predicting correctly whether it tries to set up or clicks X move. I'd prefer if this was sent back to UUBL, there is nothing gained from keeping it.

tl;dr I think Drought is worth looking at as the primary ban-worthy issue here. If the process has to go back through Policy Review then re-ban Venusaur and open up the discussion there again. Ban the bunny. Don't let Lilburr vote, she can redeem herself if she bans Jirachi though :x
 
The sun goes skrrrahh, pap, pap, ka-ka-ka
Skidiki-pap-pap, and a pu-pu-pudrrrr-boom
Skya, du-du-ku-ku-dun-dun

Poom, poom, you dun know..

After this brief introduction I'd like to do a more serious post about the current issue in Underused. While it's true that Venusaur is definitively one of the best abuser in Sun teams at the moment I also firmly believe that this whole archetype has been underrated even before Venusaur unban. Indeed, a few days before the release of Venusaur, I was already laddering with a sun team and talked about how dangerous that archetype was on council chat as you can see : here. Like Twilight I was using Shiftry (in this team) > Venusaur and while it's not as good as Venusaur, it's definitively a good pick and abuser under Sun. Twilight highlighted the fact that outside of Charizard and Venusaur which are obviously the biggest threat to deal with, there is a lot of Pokemon which tend to enhance even more this archetype. Blissey with Sunny Day + Teleport is an amazing blanket check to a lot of things and can help Venusaur or Charizard to come with ease on the field. On the other hand, Hatterene which was already great become even more better by getting a boosted Mystical Fire which allows it to pressure even more things like Cobalion or Skarmory (which are both OHKOed by a Sun boosted Mystical Fire after Stealth Rock). While some people said that we should ban Venusaur and maybe Charizard too, I trully think it's a bad idea this time since players like Lilburr has proven that things like Specs Heliolisk or Flame Charge Incineroar are also huge threats under Sun. People also begin to use their own Flash Fire Specs/Boots Chandelure in their (Sun) teams in order to abuse the fact that most Venusaur / Charizard don't run any coverage to hit Chandelure (at least for now because I talked about CBU about this and he brought mixed Venusaur with Knock Off or Power Whip as a nice option to bypass Chandelure / Blissey with more ease). Also if I'm not mistaken, Charizard is one of the best Pokemon in RU at the moment so it would be even worst in my opinion to ban it instead of Drought which has proven to be an issue for almost all low tiers since a few months (and it's even a great archetype in OU with Cinderace). At this point, I think we should definitively focus on banning Drought than banning one of its multiples abusers. A lot of people are trying to deal with Sun as much as they can and answers to this whole archetype are pretty limited. Hatterene is a win condition on its own and loves the fact that both Venusaur and Charizard are able to pressure Steel-types for it.. On the other hand Venusaur is as good as before and Charizard is one of the scariest wallbreaker to face since it can OHKO / 2HKO the whole metagame with Weather Ball / Overheat bar Tyranitar which gets blown away by either Focus Punch or Choice Specs Focus Blast. We don't have many options, either we're banning Drought or we're banning both Venusaur and Charizard (which is as I said in my opinion the worst thing to do). All in all, I feel like it's quite tough to pressure Sun teams to the point that I'm currently not able to say if Diggersby is broken or not just because of the sheer force of Sun archetype. I trully think manual Sun is not even close in term of viability since it can be deny way more effectively with Tyranitar. Unlike the last time, there is powerful new tools for Sun teams like Blissey, Choice Scarf Healing Wish Jirachi or Hatterene which can deny almost any Entry Hazards and can beat most Entry Hazards setters.. So yeah, I don't know what's the other council members final thoughts on this topic but on my side I will be more inclined to ban Drought so we don’t have to deal with this recalcitrant issue..

tl;dr : Watch the video and you'll understand
 
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